UCDP #77 – AI in Dealerships & EV Retail Innovation w/ Ross Tinkham & Alex Lawrence

What's the story behind this AI-focused episode, and what's Ross Tinkham's journey into auto tech?

Zach Klempf: Hey everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Used Car Dealer Podcast, post-NIADA, where the whole conference was abuzz about AI. Today I'm joined by Ross Tinkham, the go-to-market leader at Podium, and Alex Lawrence, the CEO of EV Auto, which is a Podium dealership customer. Ross brings extensive experience in leveraging AI to enhance dealership communications, while Alex has had tremendous success in the used EV dealership space. Together, they offer unique insights into how AI is reshaping customer engagement and sales in the auto industry. So guys, thanks for joining me on the podcast today.

Ross Tinkham: Thanks for having us.

Alex Lawrence: Thanks, Zach, appreciate it.

Zach: So to kick things off, I'll start with you, Ross. Can you share your journey into the automotive tech industry and a little bit about your role at Podium for the audience?

Ross: Sure, absolutely. I entered the automotive industry about 10 years ago, coming up on a decade. That was actually when I first joined Podium, so that was my first experience in the business, on the vendor side, working with dealers. I spent a lot of time working with dealers and dealership groups, and did a lot on a partnership level for a period of time. Today I lead our automotive sales organization, and it's a ton of fun. The industry is at a really exciting point — lots of good things happening, lots of changes, twists and turns. It's definitely been an interesting journey.

Zach: And Alex, talk to me about what inspired you to transition from academia to founding EV Auto, focusing exclusively on used EVs.

Alex: Yeah, I still teach. I'm a tenured professor — I teach a class called Sales and AI Technology in the fall and the spring, and another sales class in the fall and the spring. I haven't quit teaching yet; it's a challenge to manage both. But for me it wasn't really a transition. I'm an entrepreneur first, college professor second. I'm just turning 51, and before I was a college professor, I'd already done 25 years as an entrepreneur. I'm fortunate the university supports me still doing that.

What inspired Alex Lawrence's path from academia to founding EV Auto?

Alex: So for me, it's two parallel tracks that I travel on. But I've always been an early adopter — for as long as I can remember, the latest gadget or video game or app or website has always been really fascinating to me. My early experience with ChatGPT was in December of 2022, crazy as that sounds. I had a visceral reaction to the product, both from a business perspective and as a college professor. I started using it in my classes, having my students use it in January, which was quite controversial at the time. It landed me on the front page of the Wall Street Journal with my picture, and I was live on CNN debating a law professor on the value of it in the classroom. So I've obviously been using it very early on in my business as well.

Zach: And how did both of your paths cross? What led to the collaboration between Alex, your dealership, EV Auto, and Podium? Just tell me how you found that product — what void it was filling at your dealership.

Alex: Yeah, I mean, I'm testing out all kinds of products, and a couple of years ago there weren't as many as there are now. I love other Utah companies, but not enough to choose them just because of that. Podium's headquarters and my business are in the same state, so I had an awareness of them, but I'd never been a customer — I didn't have a business that made sense for Podium to be used. So when it came time for me to look at tools like this, they were a natural candidate.

How did EV Auto and Podium start working together?

Alex: And during that process, they emerged as the best product. That's totally unbiased, unpaid — I was a paying customer for a while before I became an ambassador, or whatever you want to call it, and I was only willing to do that because I'm a paying customer. I'm not available for rent, or for sale in some cases. So the product was great, and it's gotten better and better, and they're awesome to work with — really a pleasure to work with. I'm fortunate I get to push the envelope a little. I think, Ross, we've done some things where I was an early beta tester, and I really relish that role. I like giving product feedback, good, bad and ugly. So it's been a gradual change in the nature of our relationship.

Zach: And Alex, what are the main use cases with Podium — the lead-nurturing aspect, and making sure that regardless of what hour of the day it is, someone is managing that lead, whether it's sales or other opportunities like trade-ins?

Alex: Yeah. And the product's gotten a lot more powerful since I started using it, so it can do a lot more. I just opened my first dealership that has a service center, so we're training the AI to start working with that. Historically, we've used it for inbound sales support during business hours. As techie as I am, our dealership is built around that personal experience and personal interaction, especially with EVs — people have tons of questions.

What are the main ways Podium supports EV Auto's sales and operations?

Alex: So during business hours, we utilize Podium for more than just the AI — the phone systems, the payments, and the Google reviews. That's part of the reason I love the product: it does so many things well. But we have times where we can't answer our phones or respond to all messages in a timely manner, so I actually hired a full-time person who manages our Podium. Part of the reason is our social media has grown dramatically, so the number of inbound leads for us has exponentially multiplied, and it's gotten overwhelming. So during business hours, we've got the AI tool we call Amy, who's well-trained and doing her thing, in addition to Heather, who's our human, and some of our salespeople as well. After hours, we've got different options — we've got a generative AI voice tool that I've actually built that I'm using for voice calls, and Podium handles all the after-hours and closed-hours text-based interactions.

Zach: So Ross, I have kind of a follow-up to some of what Alex is mentioning. In your own words, how does Podium's AI BDC integrate with existing dealership systems to enhance customer communication?

How does Podium's AI BDC integrate with a dealer's CRM and comms stack?

Ross: Yeah, great question. There are really two points of integration when it comes to lead engagement. Number one, pretty much any dealer we're working with is using a CRM, and all those leads are flowing into the CRM. With certain systems, we can integrate to pull those leads into our platform for our AI to work — engage in the conversation, and so on. The other point of integration is how we take the data that's now housed in Podium and write it back into the dealer's CRM. So it's really pushing the leads into Podium, and pulling the data from Podium back into the CRM.

We do have, especially on the independent side, maybe smaller operations, that use Podium for a lot of the stuff you'd probably use your CRM for: lead communication, and we're supplying the phone system. So really any channel that a customer is looking to engage with the dealer on, we support with our infrastructure. A lot of that is happening in Podium, and then the dealer might be using their CRM at the point of, say, desking a deal. We certainly integrate — we don't integrate with everybody the same way; it depends on the vendor and what APIs they make available, what data they're open to passing through. But in some cases, we have dealers who are using Podium more for CRM-type task handling when it comes to front-end communication with prospects.

Zach: And Alex, I wanted to ask you a little deeper about the implementation of Podium's AI tools, and how it's not only impacted EV Auto's operations, but what sort of changes or tweaks did you make to existing workflows when you were thinking about implementing this AI technology into your dealership?

What workflow changes did Alex make when implementing AI at EV Auto?

Alex: Yeah, turning it on is easy — getting it set up and going. The product's certainly gotten a lot better at its ability to train the AI. In the early stages, as a beta tester, we spent a lot of time training the AI on not just how to answer questions, but how to do it in a voice that is our voice, which is very unique. We're very casual, very laid-back, very relaxed, and I don't want aggressive follow-up, I don't want aggressive efforts to schedule test drives — some things that are very different from a lot of the use cases and customers that Podium has. So there was a learning curve for that, but it's gotten better and better over time — it's learning faster. I'll give you a good example: we have an acquisitions business that acquires cars from private-party sellers, and it's now managing inbound leads for people who want to sell us their car. We've been training it on how to ask those questions, which are different than when we're trying to sell a car. Its learning curve has been much better than when I first started with this a year, a year and a half ago.

So the onboarding process was easy. Especially if you're a dealership that — I mean, everybody says they're unique, and there's some truth to that, but there aren't a whole lot of EV-only dealers out there, and I'm also not from the car business. So I just refuse to do some of the things that are very common for lead nurturing in the car business. Not right or wrong, but I think out of the box, the AI tool they have is going to fit more dealers than it does me. But again, it's been a pretty easy process. It's gotten a lot easier over time — I was one of their first users, so it was actually really painful at first, but that's how software development goes, and we learned together. Now, when I just turned on this other one, it's the first time I've had an opportunity to turn on something new and different, and my lead who's working that surprised me today, Ross — he's like, "Yeah, it's doing great." I was kind of expecting him to say we're still training it, and he's like, "Yeah, pretty darn good," and it's only been a couple of weeks.

Why is out-of-the-box AI only a "B" or "B-plus," and what does it take to reach an "A"?

Alex: So Zach, can I add maybe just a couple of thoughts to that? I spend a lot of time talking about AI solutions in the market — not just Podium — and how to think about it, how to buy it. Most people haven't purchased this before, so you don't know the questions to ask, or what your expectations should be coming in, because this is a new thing.

Ross: I think that's totally fair. But the way I'd frame it to the audience is: what you get out of the box is generally going to be quite good — call it a B or a B-plus. But to really get that to an A, that's going to require partnership and investment from you, Mr. Dealer. We want to answer certain questions — it's different than how some other folks would want it handled. We manage a lot of that in the initial onboarding, but for that first 60 to 90 days, you're fine-tuning. You're going to watch conversations, you're going to see things you love, you're going to see things you don't love, and you're going to want those addressed differently. So look for a product that's customizable to you and the way you want to interact with customers, but have open eyes and expectations that it's going to take some investment on your end to get it where you want it to be. The great news is, once you get it there, you don't have to go back and do it again. Those are the right expectations to walk in with when you're thinking about leveraging AI for the first time.

How does Podium keep AI communications human and personalized?

Zach: Ross, I'll add a follow-up to that — how does Podium ensure that AI-driven communications maintain a personalized, human-like touch? What under the hood helps enable that for the dealership?

Ross: Sure, that's a great question. Any AI solution you'd be using is only as good as the data you push into it. So we do a lot with, for instance, a dealer's website as a point of truth for things like inventory or feature-and-function questions — there are ways we connect with a data source to ensure we're presenting accurate information. Beyond that, part of the secret sauce is that we're very much focused on human-like communication, which is far different from bot-like. If somebody submits a question, you can read the syntax and understand what they're asking, but is there some sort of emotional layer behind that question? Being able to read for those things is really important to having that type of human-like engagement. The way we've deployed engineering resources is to have the most conversational, human-like agent in the market — that's where we focus a lot of our time and effort.

Zach: And Ross, a follow-up — with the rise of digital retail, how are customer expectations evolving, and how does AI address these changes?

How are consumer expectations evolving in the digital retail era, and how does AI help?

Ross: Yeah, that's a great question too. Digital retailing has been interesting to watch unfold, really coming out of COVID. There was a rush for DR tools — I think some dealers have found success weaving those into their processes, and frankly some have not, probably depending on how they implemented it. I'd answer the question this way: as consumers, we all want personalized, frictionless, immediate experiences with any brand we're interacting with. So if I come to your website with a question, my expectation is that someone gets back to me quickly with the information I'm looking for, in a personalized way. That's really where I think AI can shine. We don't do DR specifically through our platform, but we have a lot of dealers who do use a DR tool, and based on certain prompts or questions from a prospect, we can pick a path — do we want this customer to go down the path to get into the store, or do we want to continue to qualify them and push them into our DR experience living on our website? I've seen it done all sorts of ways. For folks who are really leveraging DR and it's doing well for the store, we can work with them to ensure our agent is pushing the right people into that process at the right time, and helping collect some of the information they'd need on the front end of that conversation.

Zach: And Alex, I wanted to get your thoughts on DR specifically in the used EV market you play in, and maybe other interesting trends you've observed in the EV market.

Why doesn't Alex use digital retailing tools, and how do EV buyers differ?

Alex: Yeah, I'm a contrarian car dealer in a lot of ways. Based on how Tesla sells a car — zero interaction from a car dealer, you make four or five selections, hit the checkout box, and you're done. Did you see recently they had a car deliver itself from the factory to a customer, went 72 miles an hour on the freeway with no one in it? But we're actually going against the grain — I don't do any digital retailing. I want people to come in, and the reason is 80 to 90 percent of my customers have never purchased an EV before, and they have lots of questions. Our experience when people come in is zero pressure, super light, one person, no back end, no F&I. It's all digital in terms of the paperwork — somebody can get in and out of here in 20 minutes. So we're trying to build a reputation: if you go by this place and ask a lot of questions and leave, we won't push you. You can just stop in and ask questions, and if you want to buy a car, great, and if you don't, don't. That's tough to replicate online, and I do sell a lot of cars out of state, mostly from social media, so we're doing things like FaceTime calls and recorded videos to show what the car looks like, more than just photos. But outside of that, with digital retailing and other EV-specific dealers around the country, I think they're largely experiencing the same thing, because it's not like you're buying a Ford F-150 — those haven't changed much over time, they're more of a commodity, and people don't have a lot of questions, so they're fine buying those through a digital retailing experience. Oftentimes they prefer that because they don't want to be bothered. So it's interesting because the leader in the market is a total digital retail experience, yet the used folks, at least the ones that come to mind, are really more focused on that in-person experience, like I am.

Zach: Alex, what were some of the challenges you faced in establishing a used-only EV dealership? I know technology played a role in helping scale that, but I'm curious what some of the other learnings were from opening an EV-only used dealership.

What were the biggest challenges in launching a used EV-only dealership?

Alex: Yeah, it'll be six years in December since we started. We've got two dealerships and a third opening here in the fall. EVs are the most volatile vehicle in the history of automotive, and that right there can tell you some of the challenges of managing inventory that fluctuates. It's also very unusual that one person can change a market for a vehicle — that person being Elon Musk. So it requires a lot of diligence, a lot of focus, and that's part of our competitive advantage, because it's all we do. Whenever we get gas cars on trade, we immediately wholesale all of them, and that will never change.

So the challenges are what I described — it's a very volatile marketplace. It's interesting, it's not really a challenge, I suppose it is, but a lot more dealers are interested in selling EVs, so we've seen a lot more competition on the acquisition side than there was a few years ago, for a variety of reasons. But I run a very lean operation — our overhead is extremely low compared to other dealers, but our volume is really good. Digital tools, technology, process — all of those things we really try to optimize, since my background's in tech for the last decade, before we just start throwing people at the problem. It really blows my mind how many people a lot of these dealerships have working there, and what it produces. That's why I think they've got these low single-digit margins. We're using technology everywhere I can find it, with the exception of some of the in-person stuff that's kind of old-school, that we think is unique to products most people have never experienced before.

What new innovations is Podium developing for dealerships?

Zach: Well put. I want to move on to the future outlook and innovation in the industry. Ross, I'll go back to you — what are some upcoming features or innovations that Podium is developing for dealerships?

Ross: Yeah, so we've spent the past few years staying narrowly focused on optimizing our sales agent, and there's still work to do there, but we feel it's in a pretty good spot. I think the natural progression is: what other problems can we solve for the dealer? For a lot of folks, it's on the service side of the business — if you want to talk about an area that's ripe to be optimized, it's just the amount of missed phone calls, the challenges with engagement, the volume they're dealing with. So we're working — we're in Q3 now, rolling out a service offering. It sounds like Alex has been playing a role in beta-testing that product, but we'll be going to market as we continue through the quarter. I think a core component to that is voice AI. There are folks doing service-only voice AI offerings in the market today, and I'm sure they do a pretty good job, but voice AI isn't quite to the level of human-like engagement that asynchronous communication is — it's the latency and speed of the conversation, and the fact that the AI has to ping a bunch of things to formulate an answer, and it has to do that in real time, the way you and I are sitting here having an actual conversation. But where's the opportunity? A lot of it's in scheduling service appointments — service schedules have a pretty high abandonment rate, it's tough to get through on the phone. So yes, we're moving with a service offering, but a core component of that will be a very high-quality voice offering to help manage that inbound service-scheduling load that comes in every day of the week. That's where we're focused next, and I'm sure it'll take us some time to really nail it and get it right out in the market, but that's where we're going through the back half of the year.

Zach: Really exciting, Ross — and of course, fixed ops are a huge part of the business. Alex, any expansion plans for EV Auto, or exciting things to come in 2025?

What's next for EV Auto in 2025?

Alex: Yeah, we're opening our third dealership in Nashville, Tennessee. We started this five and a half-plus years ago — the plan from day one was to be the world's largest seller and servicer of used EVs. We've got a big footprint, a big dream, and we have an offer on a fourth location that we hope goes through. I've got ideas of where number five, six, seven and so on are going to go, so if we keep on the trajectory we've been on, those will happen. We added our first service center at our newest location — it's a four-bay, EV-only service center, and it's been extremely busy with no advertising at all. We're bullish on that. We also have some mobile Cybertrucks and trailers that do mobile repair in Denver, Colorado, and in St. George, Utah, and we've got one rolling out in Orange County, California. So we've got a mobile service business and a few other things we haven't announced yet, as part of our vertical integration of all things EV. We're going to have the accelerator to the floor from now until the end of this year, for sure.

Zach: That's exciting, and I love Nashville too. Quick question — when you talk about doing EV service, what's the difference for those listening? If you were doing service on a standardized vehicle, average independent, versus doing service on EV vehicles that are heavy on technology?

What's different about servicing EVs compared to gas vehicles?

Alex: Yeah, one of the great things about EVs is their low need for service — that's one of the sales pitches, if you will. They don't have hardly any moving parts, they have very few fluids — not a lot of things that can wear out or corrode. So you say that out of one side of your mouth, and then you say you've got a service center out of the other side — well, wait a minute. There are two things there: one, Teslas have been on the road since 2013, so everything has a life to it, although EV parts last much longer apples-to-apples than ICE vehicles. We do tires, we do brakes, we do air cabin filters, we do 12-volt batteries — those are all things that wear out. We also do things like cameras and computer systems, control arms, air conditioning units — those have problems. The interesting thing about EV service is there aren't as many on the road, so they don't have as many problems, but the profit in the service business is the labor more than the parts, and all the EV stuff is labor-heavy, so the margins are good. The challenge for traditional dealers is that most people who drive an EV think their car is special, think it's unique and different from a gas car, and in many instances that's true. So they don't love taking their Tesla into a Jiffy Lube or the Ford dealer nearby, and Tesla itself often has a very long wait. I think the reason we're so busy is because we fill that gap — you don't have to wait a long time, we're EV-only, all our techs are certified, and our online brand and reputation — we're the highest-rated dealership on Google in the state of Utah, new or used. People read about us, they hear about us, they follow us on social media, and their comfort level is high. So when you put those together, there's a big market to go after for EV service.

Zach: Really cool. My next question is for both of you — how do you envision the future of AI in automotive retail over the next few years? Ross, I'll start with you.

How will AI transform auto retail over the next few years?

Ross: Sure, I'm happy to take that one first. I think we're really just getting started here. I mentioned at the NIADA conference last week — I took a quick poll of who's using an AI solution or has tried one, and maybe a third of the room raised their hand. Take that sample size for what it's worth, but a lot of folks haven't stepped into this yet, or tried it a few years ago when it didn't work well, and are hesitant to try again. So I think, number one, the adoption curve — we're going to continue to ride through that, and you'll see more and more folks. It'll be the folks who aren't using an AI solution who are rare, compared to the folks who do. In terms of product functionality and the problems and use cases it addresses, we're going to see those expand. Our perspective is specialized agents trained to do the job — that's the strategy. Right now we're talking about a lead-engagement agent and a service-engagement agent, but there's a lot of other tasks happening in the dealership where AI agents could assist. So I think you'll see a lot of new companies pop up, maybe focused on solving specific problems, and some of the larger players will start to develop more specialized agents to run against new and different tasks for the dealer. But I'll go back to where I started — we're really just getting started here. It's going to be fascinating to see how things change and what it looks like in the next six to twelve months.

Alex: Depends how far out you want to go, Zach — a year? Three years?

Zach: Two or three years.

Alex: I'd say it'll be at the dealer's disposal — they can choose how AI-oriented they want to be. I'll talk about the most extreme example, because you can scale back from there. In two to three years, I think a dealer will be able to choose a phone and text solution that's indistinguishable from a human who works in their dealership, who talks the way they want, who replies the way they want — phone calls and text, those are the only two interactions that aren't in person. I think it'll be indistinguishable, should they choose, and they'll be able to do all the things you'd hope your employee would do, at a near-perfect rate — follow-up, outbound, inbound, a certain number of phone calls per day, all those kinds of things. I think they'll bat a thousand on completing those, equal to or better than a human. I also think, outside of AI in general, you're going to see other dealers with cars that can legally self-drive offering delivery, much like Tesla will. You'll see other AI-enabled things that aren't just phone calls and text messages. I think you're also going to see AI tools that help with acquisition — buying cars from private-party sellers — that help with strategy, that look for ways to optimize the business financially. There's a lot of AI tools that'll be unleashed doing deep analysis and deep strategy, unlocking opportunities that humans certainly can do, but maybe you're resource-restricted, or maybe the talent you have is an A-minus and you need an A-plus. I also think cost is going to continue to go down, just like any technology, as more competitors come into the market and technology gets better and faster — prices will go down, not to the point where it's not profitable for companies like Podium, but the consumer will benefit because there will be a lot of companies entering. So I think it can touch every part of the dealership, and you could even argue, beyond that, you might have robots for in-person stuff in the service center — certainly longer than two to three years out, that can take it to a whole new level, creepiness for some, excitement for others. That's a decade out, but that's kind of my look into the future.

Zach: Love that vision you painted, Alex — and just the fact that Tesla is doing self-delivery even today is kind of crazy, eerie, interesting. Definitely a fun future for AI to look out for.

Rapid fire: favorite EV models, a one-word prediction, and the top tech trend

Zach: So the last part of the podcast, I want to do a rapid-fire segment. I have three questions, and I just want one or two sentence answers. First one: what is your favorite EV model currently on the market? We'll start with you, Alex.

Alex: Sedan, SUV, truck — you've got to narrow it down. Daily driver or just dreamy?

Zach: We'll do a daily driver.

Alex: Cybertruck.

Zach: Nice. How about you, Ross?

Ross: Oh, I was going to say the same thing — so I'm the link that followed up with the same answer. But I don't have an EV, infrastructure where I live is not great, but if it were a different story, I think Cybertrucks are sweet and unique, and they're polarizing, and I like things that are polarizing.

Alex: There's a daily driver with full self-driving, four-wheel steering, steer-by-wire, massive visibility, super quiet, super comfortable. Take the looks outside of it, and the utility of a bed with a tonneau cover — they really are a very pleasant car to drive.

Zach: Definitely — if I didn't live in San Francisco and have to parallel park, I'd consider one.

Alex: It just parallel parks itself.

Zach: True, but those spaces are tight. Second question: what word would you use to describe the future of automotive retail, or even a sentence?

Ross: Let me take that first — that's a good question. Just innovation, and operational excellence to a whole new level. You think about where AI is going and what it opens up for a dealer from an efficiency standpoint — just innovation. I've been in this for 10 years, and I know there's a lot of folks listening who've been in auto far longer than that, and it's always an interesting journey — you don't know what's coming next, but it's one of the most durable markets here in the U.S., and it always finds a way to win and succeed. So, continued innovation.

Alex: More disruption than any time in automotive history.

Zach: Wow, profound. And the last question — most exciting tech trend you're following right now.

Ross: Really, for me, it's just all things AI. There's a lot to that, but that is absolutely the trend to follow.

Alex: Certainly hard not to just say I agree, but I'll say even more specifically, generative voice. I've been piloting stuff for a while, and it's finally getting to a B level, B-plus maybe. I have big scale issues if I really want to do everything I dream of, and that scale is limited by the telephone, whether inbound or outbound. I can think of other hardware-oriented things, car-oriented things, but generative voice is probably what I'm watching closest right now.

Ross: Definitely agree with you, Alex. I've seen people out here advertising SDRs that are essentially AI generative-voice SDRs — a lot going on in the space.

Zach: I'll leave it at that. I really enjoyed the episode, both with you, Ross and Alex. It's been extremely educational, and I'm sure for all the listeners as well — it's been an AI 101 course on this podcast. So thanks both of you guys for joining me today.

Ross: Thank you.

Alex: Hey, thanks, Zach, it was fun.